tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post4271481983480083967..comments2023-05-22T06:30:18.777-06:00Comments on Emerging Grace: My Former Underlying BeliefsLindahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16458658959357581120noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-90724043337053323662007-05-09T09:04:00.000-06:002007-05-09T09:04:00.000-06:00hey, I am sure some of you are familiar with the w...hey, I am sure some of you are familiar with the works of John MacArthur..... He's pretty black & white about church politics & this time around he's letting people know how he feels about the emerging church. I saw a preview here: http://buzzplant.com/truthwar/ecard1/ . I have yet to read it but am kind of interested in hearing what he has to say about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-40550685118143422252007-05-02T08:18:00.000-06:002007-05-02T08:18:00.000-06:00Pam,Great thoughts. I agree that to be the church...Pam,<BR/>Great thoughts. I agree that to be the church, free of the leash of religious obligations, really can open us to deeper connections with God and other believers. And once we've been free of the leash, I think we aren't likely to let someone slip that noose around our neck again (speaking for myself).<BR/><BR/>Barb,<BR/>Thanks so much for sharing your reflections in the way that you did. It is so true that these changes in beliefs are really the process of the Spirit and a greater growth of grace in our understanding of Him. It seems that is exactly what Paul prayed for us, that the eyes of our understanding be enlightened. I could certainly relate to the progression in the thoughts that you shared.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16458658959357581120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-23997765338476338072007-04-30T19:24:00.000-06:002007-04-30T19:24:00.000-06:00Hi Grace,Some thoughtful insights that I resonate ...Hi Grace,<BR/><BR/>Some thoughtful insights that I resonate with. It has been a year of re-examining many aspects of church. Here are my reflections on this topic. See what you think.<BR/><BR/>I have discovered the following fact: The Road to Restoration is really the Road to Greater Grace in one’s life.<BR/><BR/>Here is a comparison between what I call the "Mar Factor" and the understanding that might be gained.<BR/>The "gift" factor is based on the charis (grace) of God in our lives which is continually at work in us by His Holy Spirit.<BR/><BR/>The Mar Factor: “Mar” defined as something injured, damaged, or impaired.<BR/><BR/>1. Mar Factor: Legalism<BR/><BR/>Understanding gained: The gift of salvation is by God’s grace and one’s identity is found to be in Christ.<BR/><BR/>2. Mar Factor: A misunderstanding of the nature and work of sanctification by the Spirit<BR/><BR/>Understanding gained: A renewed appreciation of the work of sanctification directed and executed by the Holy Spirit in the believer’s life.<BR/><BR/>3. Mar Factor: A faulty church model/paradigm--one that is inflexible, lacking in love, and in demonstrating God’s graciousness<BR/><BR/>Understanding gained: The gift of authentic Christian community<BR/><BR/>Now there is a greater understanding and hope of seeking and finding a healthy fellowship and a place to experience a greater sense of community.<BR/><BR/>4. Mar Factor: Inability to recognize the affects of controlling leaders. Their experience of biblical, godly leadership has been limited and marred.<BR/><BR/>Understanding gained: The gift of leaders and the concept of godly leadership. Modeled by Christ; seen in leaders of healthy communities.<BR/><BR/>5. Mar Factor: Inability to distinguish or recognize error, wolves, and heresies.<BR/><BR/>Understanding gained: The gift of spiritual insight is available to individuals in Christian community and entails the need to consistently exercise spiritual discernment in order to recognize error and any inroads of aberrant teachings among believers.<BR/><BR/>6. Mar Factor: The gifts of the Spirit, ministry gifts, and ministry practices<BR/><BR/>Understanding gained: A corrected view of the role and ministry of the Holy Spirit. This includes an improved understanding of how the gifts ought to work and what church ministry practices are beneficial and those that are not; the ability to walk in greater harmony with the Spirit by being sensitive to the leading of the Spirit.<BR/><BR/>7. Mar Factor: Personal emotional and spiritual injury<BR/><BR/>Understanding gained: The benefits of forgiveness and compassion.<BR/> Growing spiritually through pain and disillusionment.<BR/> Suffering ought not to be wasted in a believer’s life.<BR/><BR/>That's it for now.<BR/>Your "Journey mate", BarbAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-30668961441924885702007-04-30T18:37:00.000-06:002007-04-30T18:37:00.000-06:00ProgramsI fully believed and taught that involveme...<I>Programs<BR/>I fully believed and taught that involvement in the programs and ministry of the church was the path to spiritual maturity and advancement in the kingdom. Zealous pursuit of these activities was a reflection of commitment and service to God</I><BR/><BR/>Guilty as charged. I had this mindset for years and years and years. Not that long ago I scolded my husband's forty-something year old sister for not getting involved with church ministry after being a pew warmer for so long. Pew Warmer...now there's a lovely word to roll around on your tongue...<BR/><BR/>The thing I am thinking about more and more is the grand capacity of the human heart to discover the greatness of God in our ordinary everyday ho-hum lives. And then to connect to others and share together what bit of bread and love we have so as to make a feast of community. The older I get, the more I am thinking that the life of the church, which meant to be the life of Christ, is distorted when it becomes leashed, like to programs and churchy stuff. Of course structure is good and needed, yet when the structured activities become measuring rods of our friendship with Jesus (and with one another) then I think we can say something went wrong in the kitchen.<BR/><BR/>(great post, as usual eg...i gotta go make dinner now. can you tell from my eating metaphors:-) !)Pam Hogeweidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667139057131247825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-15122480614244541252007-04-29T22:34:00.000-06:002007-04-29T22:34:00.000-06:00anonymous,We went through the title thing also. F...anonymous,<BR/>We went through the title thing also. For awhile many were prophets, then it was apostles. At the time that we left the teaching was that it was necessary to be properly submitted to the apostle in order to access God's grace for one's life. <BR/>It's amazing where the questions lead, isn't it?<BR/><BR/>Thanks lily, and vice versa. It's been great sharing this journey with you.<BR/><BR/>Thank you also joseph. The body is so much richer with many voices participating.<BR/><BR/>annie,<BR/>Feel free to link. I'll have to pop by and see it looks. It really does feel dangerous and heretical to change beliefs that we've known for a long time. It helps to know that so many others are hearing the same call to change.<BR/><BR/>Thanks Jamie, I felt the need to frame my deconstruction more personally and demonstrate that it was an evolutionary process.<BR/><BR/>Yes Bryan, it is good to see where Jesus is leading me. I wonder what's next? ;)<BR/><BR/>tithe,<BR/>Most of the tithing teaching I heard was from Malachi, that the first 10% went to the "storehouse" which was interpreted to be the local church.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16458658959357581120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-11256644468181868242007-04-29T17:30:00.000-06:002007-04-29T17:30:00.000-06:00Is there a verse that says that the tithe was give...Is there a verse that says that the <A HREF="http://churchtithesandofferings.com" REL="nofollow" TITLE="tithe">tithe</A> was given before other offerings? I know the first fruit offering was given first. I never knew this about tithing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-26110777173928078032007-04-29T15:48:00.000-06:002007-04-29T15:48:00.000-06:00Keep writing along these lines. It's good to see ...Keep writing along these lines. It's good to see your journey and where Jesus is leading you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-40508249208688899122007-04-29T10:46:00.000-06:002007-04-29T10:46:00.000-06:00I am glad you wrote this. And excellent addition ...I am glad you wrote this. And excellent addition to your original post. Well done!<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/>JamieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-85309529481202159072007-04-29T07:06:00.000-06:002007-04-29T07:06:00.000-06:00Thank you Grace! I took your "before" comments an...Thank you Grace! <BR/><BR/>I took your "before" comments and lined them up in a word doc with the "after" comments - essentially combining the two posts to help me get my mind around all you were saying. I have been on this same journey! <BR/><BR/>You also said, "A key element of change is dissatisfaction with the current system of beliefs." I see that there are a lot of dissatisfied folks out there, but I find that they are afraid to express it for fear of being labeled heretics. But I definitely see more and more people, like you...and me, who are facing that fear and finding freedom.<BR/><BR/>I am a 4th generation Southern Baptist. There are a lot of "expectations" that come with that in my family. Because you are articulating the process so much better than I ever could, I am planning to use your before and after comments to help me explain "where I am" to my loved ones. I also wonder if you would mind if I posted your comments on my blog in that format (before and after combined), of course giving credit to you...I have already put a link to your blog on mine.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your help, Grace!!Annie Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15392304846645717253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-68973198515957363082007-04-29T07:00:00.000-06:002007-04-29T07:00:00.000-06:00Good post. I am excited when women really start t...Good post. I am excited when women really start to wrestle with stuff and give their insights. We have a great group of women leaders in our simple church network and I sense the same heart in you. Keep up the Kingdom posts!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-39556410239111319912007-04-28T22:12:00.000-06:002007-04-28T22:12:00.000-06:00Thanks for articulating for me. I love it when you...Thanks for articulating for me. I love it when you do that.<BR/><BR/>Another great one. Thanks Grace.Lilyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00896230432135092784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-73608319687637585732007-04-28T16:36:00.000-06:002007-04-28T16:36:00.000-06:00Wow, I think I do know you. I think I am you. I ...Wow, <BR/><BR/>I think I do know you. I think I am you. I could have written this post except for the area of dualism. (We were taught and believed that our workplace could be an area that we lead with spiritual gifts. We were to be leaders there too.)<BR/><BR/>It was the servant leadership that will ultimately separate us. Our leadership was intent on us starting to call them Apostle so-and-so or Prophet so-and-so. My husband said NO!! I actually went to scripture to prove him wrong. The more I read, the more convinced that he was right all along. At that point I started questioning EVERYTHING. Spiritual covering, tithing, buildings, true love of others in the body of Christ at large, attitudes and so forth. <BR/><BR/>We now find ourselves completely not fitting, completely lost and yet completely at peace. We are not longer trying to fit God into the church but the church in to Him. It is freeing, scary, wonderful and terrifying. <BR/><BR/>Keep writing, It makes me realize that I'm not crazy.<BR/><BR/>A former leaderAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com