tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post116276200525674826..comments2023-05-22T06:30:18.777-06:00Comments on Emerging Grace: Fat, Lazy Pastors' WivesLindahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16458658959357581120noreply@blogger.comBlogger83125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-69882845399539082822007-12-28T21:44:00.000-07:002007-12-28T21:44:00.000-07:00Grace,I guess you're a fat, lazy housewife, and th...Grace,<BR/><BR/>I guess you're a fat, lazy housewife, and that is why you're so inflamed about what MD said in his post about fat wives. <BR/><BR/>Get some exercise and go on a diet. Your husband will thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-69749157306697064822007-05-04T22:11:00.000-06:002007-05-04T22:11:00.000-06:00I know I am chiming in late but....I just read Mar...I know I am chiming in late but....I just read Marks blog and I think you are taking his comments out of context. He is not saying that Haggard's actions were due to his wife's weight. Rather this is a blog to help fellow pastors stay aware of possible pit falls, in light of Pastor Haggard's dreadful mistakes.<BR/><BR/>I can see how some folks might be offended by Mark Driscoll's boldness or personality. However I think we must put that aside and measure his statements against scripture.<BR/><BR/>Some of his most important points he made in this blog are the following:<BR/>"Lastly, the big issue is a love and fear of God. Only a man really knows his heart and whether or not he loves and fears God above all else. Without this a man will fail to live for God's glory, and it is only a matter of time."<BR/><BR/>I am a woman who is not offended by Mark and find comfort in the fact that he is a warrior for Christ. He is a man who is not hiding behind a safe and domesticated westernized Christianity.<BR/><BR/>I encourage all who post here to not get caught up in the focus on this pastor's personality and instead stay focused on God and how he is using men like Mark Driscoll to lead more men to Christ. Our world need more men who follow Christ and Mark speaks to them.<BR/> Stop bashing him and start praying for him.<BR/><BR/>Peace out Sista's....YICStephanie Bradburn.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06763482124663904976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-89677156676969863512007-03-28T14:52:00.000-06:002007-03-28T14:52:00.000-06:00I don't see the big deal. I'm a woman, i've been c...I don't see the big deal. I'm a woman, i've been cheated on. I'm not a member of Mars Hill, i'm just a down to earth person. I think he has a good point. People like yourself just encourage the double standard. I'd be mad if I married a guy and he got fat and ugly. Course if it's the other way around then we have all these bloggers going wahh wahh wahh eating disorders, self esteem issues, what a pig, wahhh. Get over it. We all know its true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-38866744086249392662007-01-20T11:25:00.000-07:002007-01-20T11:25:00.000-07:00This was a good post, even if I came to it kind of...This was a good post, even if I came to it kind of late. Would somebody please stick a donut in Driscoll's mouth?! Seriously, though, you were very fair and insightful in your review of his blog entry.<br /><br />My husband likes to listen to his sermons, and I've brought up my concerns with him before, but he has said that Driscoll has "repented" of some of the things he's said from the pulpit. (I don't know since I don't listen to him). He sounds like one of those young, inexperienced youth pastors (some of you may know what I'm talking about).Kathleen F.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00491490353685078596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1164174843796539352006-11-21T22:54:00.000-07:002006-11-21T22:54:00.000-07:00Dave seems to have some issues.Dave seems to have some issues.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163656760393381512006-11-15T22:59:00.000-07:002006-11-15T22:59:00.000-07:00I'm sorry I don't have replies for everyone. I do...I'm sorry I don't have replies for everyone. I do appreciate your comments, especially those I agree with. :)<BR/><BR/>Helen, <BR/>Great post! Nice to meet you and visit your blog.<BR/><BR/>Gary,<BR/>I thought that your blog posts about this were insightful.<BR/><BR/>Rose,<BR/>Bravo to you! My hope is that you will have an opportunity to speak for the majority of us who will never be heard by someone like Mark.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16458658959357581120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163655632850793522006-11-15T22:40:00.000-07:002006-11-15T22:40:00.000-07:00I still think fatter women who let themselves go l...I still think fatter women who let themselves go like that contribute to their husband's wandering eye.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163551702459931322006-11-14T17:48:00.000-07:002006-11-14T17:48:00.000-07:00Grace, I am a woman pastor in the Seattle area and...Grace, I am a woman pastor in the Seattle area and have posted an Open Letter to Mark Driscoll here<BR/><BR/>http://rosemswetman.blogspot.com/Rose Madrid Swetmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546715058262370982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163528675338928962006-11-14T11:24:00.000-07:002006-11-14T11:24:00.000-07:00naimas, My apologies for the snarky tone in my pre...naimas, <BR/>My apologies for the snarky tone in my previous comments. I could have responded with grace, but I was in a foul mood and I blew it. Sorry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163522353678883952006-11-14T09:39:00.000-07:002006-11-14T09:39:00.000-07:00naimas, Thank you for your sensitive questions. Ye...naimas, <BR/>Thank you for your sensitive questions. Yes, undoubtedly prayer will take place at the protest. But I suspect that prayer happens at WTO protests too. Although I am surely not as clever as many, I did manage to fumble my way over to the webpage and read it despite the many big words. Eventually, despite my initial blindness, I was able to puzzle out the fact that this will not be a WTO protest. What a surprise that was to me!<BR/><BR/>However, I would make a strong differentiation between the purpose and nature of a public protest and a prayer meeting. <BR/><BR/>It is my understanding, and I may be quite wrong in this, that the intent of a protest is usually to make a public statement to raise community awareness, and thereby influence the person/organization being protested to change, out of concern about their public perception. It is also to make a statement that there are people who oppose what is happening, so that the silence of the community does not infer that the behaviour of the person/organization are blithely condoned. <BR/><BR/>The intent of a separate prayer meeting would be to come together as the Body of Christ to ask God to influence and transform Mark within his heart. <BR/><BR/>Ultimately, judging by the combative nature of many of the parties involved on both sides of this issue, I doubt that a public protest will do anything but escalate tensions, causing Mark and his MHers to feel self-righteous because of their perception that they are being persecuted "for the sake of Christ and His Gospel".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163470369901805372006-11-13T19:12:00.000-07:002006-11-13T19:12:00.000-07:00Who is to say that prayer will not take place at t...Who is to say that prayer will not take place at the meeting? Have you read the webpage or are you just blindly thinking it will be a WTO protest?<BR/><BR/>People will be praying. I am sure. Both inside and outside of the church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163467022255858262006-11-13T18:17:00.000-07:002006-11-13T18:17:00.000-07:00I wouldn't protest the church, either. Driscoll i...I wouldn't protest the church, either. Driscoll is not a favorite of mine, but protesting his church seems a little extreme and ill-advised. <BR/><BR/>What will it accomplish? Truly?<BR/><BR/>I see a familiar reaction arising from within Mars Hill: "We're being protested. That's persecution. We're doing something right. Thanks be to God." Any other action may bring the same reaction, but this just doesn't seem like it will do much good...at least in terms of changing Driscoll's attitude.<BR/><BR/>If it is to bring attention to what he says, it will certainly do that. But that will bring mixed results as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163434872838839162006-11-13T09:21:00.000-07:002006-11-13T09:21:00.000-07:00This is what I just posted on the endfundamentalis...This is what I just posted on the endfundamentalism.org blog,<BR/><BR/>I wonder how many people would come if there were a meeting devoted to prayer for Mark Driscoll and his church? <BR/><BR/>I wonder how people would react if this time of prayer started with the assumption that advocating the subjugation/abuse of women in the name of God is wrong, dishonoring to God, an impediment to God's Kingdom, and harmful to Christians and the community at large? <BR/><BR/>If wonder, if that were the presupposition, would people be willing to gather to pray for grace, love, freedom, and humility to prevail in Mark's heart and mind, in his teachings, and in his church? I would. <BR/><BR/>To be honest, I have more confidence in God changing Mark's heart than in a positive outcome resulting from a protest. I am not saying that people should not protest, I understand the desire to make a public statement against an evil practice. I am simply proposing a complementary tactic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163426980004529292006-11-13T07:09:00.000-07:002006-11-13T07:09:00.000-07:00H'm, I think I have a long story, but hey, even fr...H'm, I think I have a long story, but hey, even freaks can change ;-S<BR/><BR/>Pam, you're so right in your last question; and I sometimes get the idea that young people and women especially suffer from the struggle with this question. That's mere logic: they are the ones that are virtually never consulted for advice or opinion, so their points of view are usually 'new' to boards, leaders and usually most of the men (the ones I encountered... ;-D maybe Dutch men are different ...)<BR/><BR/>In the churches and christian organisations (last category are by the way US and Canadian) I've been, all my politically stated comments and hints for current situations were always welcomed with 'oh it's so nice of you that you want to think and give us your ideas, but we don't need that right now (or someting else to get it over with soon)' <BR/>Those situation urged me to ask myself that question too: in the first place for leaders in general (because the leaders I encountered in 'my' churches and organisations reacted particularly scared of me and my words, and believe that the half of the church is not allowed to say anything at all times, why did God make them (women in church)anyway (freakin' synism)) but also 'how do we respond to those Driscoll-like types?' or 'how to respond to manipulative dangerous leaders?'<BR/><BR/>This blogging helps ventilate negative things like frustration and also the good things like ideas (THANKS FOR READING and reacting), but does it help those Driscoll-types get a wiser and more/better informed?<BR/>In the cases I talked to those guys face to face, I got storms and twisters right back in my face.<BR/>Because I knew I was right in some of those cases, and I didn't know how to say it that they would listen, I started a study in theology. Today I'm somewhere at the BA-level (we don't have those exact levels in the Netherlands yet) and 2.5 years to go, and now the start listening a little... and the board even took my advices of the last year serious. By the way, the only way I know that they did, is from the things they write in the newsbulletin, the things they invented on the meetings... ah well whatever, if it works, that's okay.<BR/><BR/>But it's absurd to be a master in theology first to get the 'right' to join in the discussion or ventilate ideas. For female churchmembers that is. And still, we're not alowed to think 'in' church; just outside, close to the door, on the porch.<BR/><BR/>The thing we did with manipulative leaders, was talking to the rest of the team to get sure we were not the crazy ones ;-D. Try to talk to the leaders, got banged on the head, closed our mouths. Untill we could talk to the ones above those leaders (or to a board) and we could tell our story. They listened and recognized the urge to do something, so they did. Still not s'th we did ourselves. We just told it to the 'higher ones'...<BR/><BR/>I have no more ideas of how to respond to the Driscoll-types, and I do hope some of you can say a little more about Pam's question.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163401941070772182006-11-13T00:12:00.000-07:002006-11-13T00:12:00.000-07:00you make some good points gary. protesting what we...you make some good points gary. protesting what we consider to be distortions of God's character and his word and abuses of power are, as history has proven, sometimes necessary. jesus staged his own protest in the temple court itself over the abuse of power and money. <BR/><BR/>these days protests tend to take place in cyberspace and blogospheres. Showing up at the guy's church, though, to picket or yell slogans? I don't think so... . <BR/><BR/>How we publicly respond to what we believe are misperceptions about womankind and marriage and the kingdom of God, etc... tells more than what we claim to believe. We can talk it (or blog it) but can we walk it. How shall we respond to the Mark Driscolls of the world?Pam Hogeweidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667139057131247825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163361401579573812006-11-12T12:56:00.000-07:002006-11-12T12:56:00.000-07:00I've read a number of comments on other blogs abou...I've read a number of comments on other blogs about the "hateful" attitude of those who oppose Mark Driscoll's teaching and autocratic, authoritarian leadership style. I fully agree that he is probably a Christian and that we have a scriptural injunction to love him. There are those who deride all complaints against Mark as being nothing more than a bunch of "fundamentalist liberals" and feminists with no better place to vent their anger. <BR/><BR/>Yet, I wonder if those same people who criticize me and others like me, have the same criticism of those in the Catholic Church who spoke out against (and protested) the protection of Priest-pedophiles? The same arguments they make kept people quiet for decades, and the abuse continued. <BR/><BR/>Now I'm sure that some people will be outraged that I compare Mark Driscoll to a pedophile. But in both cases it is men who claim to speak for God, in positions of spiritual and moral authority, with power and influence in the personal lives of their congregants (they both advise families on what to do in the bedroom). And, they both abuse. In one case it is sexual abuse, in the other, spiritual abuse. <BR/><BR/>As I said in my blog, you could easily take Mark's comments about women and substitute blacks or Jews, and find many Christians in the 19th and early 20th century who could find plenty of scriptural justification for those views. <BR/><BR/>Obviously many people see Mark as a bit eccentric, but basically harmless. But that's what a lot of people said about a little Austrian failed architect with a goofy mustache. And then few people spoke out. Bonhoeffer was one, and he paid for it with his life. Mark is no Hitler, but every man has a little bit of Hitler in him, just read "Night" by Elie Wiesel. Give a man enough power, isolate him from those he serves, stroke his ego, and watch out. <BR/><BR/>oh, and by all means, please do pray for Mars Hill and for the protestors both. This is a very incindiary situation. Two camps, each vehemently believing the other is wrong, and that the others are dishonouring the God we all profess to love. Where is there room for love in all of this? Yes, much prayer is needed. <BR/><BR/>I confess that I have a difficult time loving a man like Mark Driscoll, especially when he does what he does in the name of God.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163349203578430562006-11-12T09:33:00.000-07:002006-11-12T09:33:00.000-07:00i hear ya robby... hopefully the protestors will b...i hear ya robby... hopefully the protestors will be few in number and hopefully other believers (like me) will not celebrate the harassment of mars hill. there is toxicity there, to be sure, yet mars hill is still part of us. <BR/><BR/>if i were in seattle what would i do? i certainly wouldn't participate in a protest against a church. and i'd be quite concerned about the emotions and anger getting out of hand and freaking out kids, as you mentioned robbymac which happened at your church (so sorry to hear that happened at all...sigh...)<BR/><BR/>can i suggest that we pray a blessing of protection and wisdom for the community of mars hill in how to respond to protestors greeting them next week?Pam Hogeweidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667139057131247825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163346297889561042006-11-12T08:44:00.000-07:002006-11-12T08:44:00.000-07:00A protest...Soumds scary. Our church endured a pro...A protest...<BR/><BR/>Soumds scary. Our church endured a protest by rabid MacArthur-ites once, waving signs that said "Vineyard Repent" and "An evil generation seeks a sign", and shoving copies of MacArthur's book <I>Charismatic Chaos</I> in our faces.<BR/><BR/>They scared a lot of the children with their hate and rage, as they yelled and harrassed people on their way to church. It was SUCH a great witness to our city <I>(note dripping sarcasm)</I>.<BR/><BR/><B>I don't like what Mark said, either</B>, but a protest during one of their church services? Is it just me, or has this whole thing suddenly got hijacked for another agenda?Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14507750513253177476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163312641530893162006-11-11T23:24:00.000-07:002006-11-11T23:24:00.000-07:00This was posted at "Conversation at the Edge". Ca...This was posted at "Conversation at the Edge". Can anyone confirm that this is true?<BR/><BR/>"11/11/06 1:54 PM | Comment Link |<BR/>Hello,<BR/><BR/>I wanted to chime in here and say that I at first related to Mr. Driscoll. A few years ago I attended a Men’s retreat and sat in on a sermon that he gave for married men only.<BR/><BR/>I was pretty shocked when he launched into a long explaination of why our wives should make themselves available for anal sex when they are on their monthly cylcles or if they are pregnant or otherwise vaginally unavailable. I confess that at first I was a bit too excited by the prospect and even felt anger at my wife for not agreeing. Lets just say I was in the dog house for quite a while.<BR/><BR/>My family and I no longer attend the church, but I still struggle with the feelings of unadequacy that was instilled in me by Mr. Driscoll’s teaching. I was convinced for a long time that I am not much of a providor and that I am simply not a good enough man for my family. I didn’t feel that way before and now I still do. I am in counceling for it and I want to be the best dad and husband I can. I do not think Mr. Driscoll is aware of how harmful his comments are to men. Allot has been said about his affect on women but I want everyone to know it’s men too."Corriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13771878099332439981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163310829470393422006-11-11T22:53:00.000-07:002006-11-11T22:53:00.000-07:00Wow, Grace, now I know where everybody's been. The...Wow, Grace, now I know where everybody's been. They've all been here!<BR/><BR/>I'm so glad you have opened discussion on this subject. Obviously it's a great conversation starter!<BR/><BR/>LilyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163301324101086292006-11-11T20:15:00.000-07:002006-11-11T20:15:00.000-07:00What bothers me most about Driscoll's comment is t...What bothers me most about Driscoll's comment is the total ASSumption it makes. How does he know that laziness is the motive behind any particular woman's actions or inactions? How does he know that they think their husbands are trapped in fidelity and they don't have to try? Did he ask THEM? I somehow doubt it, and it's disrespectful and irresponsible to assume others' motives. I can guess all I want, too, about what is behind a situation where a man feels his woman is unavailable. My guess would be different than Driscoll's. But it, too, would be a guess. His guess, however, reveals a way that he sees women, and it is disturbing to think that such a mind is leading women in a church.Judehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00282197847662128948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163243554107525422006-11-11T04:12:00.000-07:002006-11-11T04:12:00.000-07:00People against Fundamentalism is organizing a prot...<A HREF="http://www.endfundamentalism.org/" REL="nofollow">People against Fundamentalism</A> is organizing a protest to be held November 19 outside one of Mark Driscoll's church campuses. If you will be in the Seattle area that day and want to participate you can find more information here:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.endfundamentalism.org/20061111/take-action-on-nov-19-mark-the-misogynist-and-mars-hill/" REL="nofollow">Take Action on Nov 19: Mark the Misogynist and Mars Hill</A>Helenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03605999794188527973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163215294101575782006-11-10T20:21:00.000-07:002006-11-10T20:21:00.000-07:00yes, i agree robbymac. when are you going to start...yes, i agree robbymac. when are you going to start? :-)Pam Hogeweidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667139057131247825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163188297963342012006-11-10T12:51:00.000-07:002006-11-10T12:51:00.000-07:00One thing...perhaps instead of hetersexual male as...One thing...perhaps instead of hetersexual male assistants, Mark could just hire ugly pastor's wives who've let themselves go. That seems to be the least sexually attractive option for him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14373188.post-1163184313852661582006-11-10T11:45:00.000-07:002006-11-10T11:45:00.000-07:00Grace,Wow. I think this has set the record as the-...Grace,<BR/><BR/>Wow. I think this has set the record as the-post-most-commented-on since you started blogging!<BR/><BR/>It's a raw nerve for a lot of us; probably means someone(s) should do some thoughtful reflection on positive gender stuff in the near future...Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14507750513253177476noreply@blogger.com